tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.comments2023-10-15T07:32:34.706-05:00Watersblogged ArchivesRobert Elart Watershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18182251436190781481noreply@blogger.comBlogger3175125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-40897444227166375062015-10-23T22:39:52.877-05:002015-10-23T22:39:52.877-05:00As always, an excellent and thought provoking arti...As always, an excellent and thought provoking article and view point. I was hoping that someone would comment with the answer to your question. I wish I had one.<br /><br />I sit here in America, literally in the lap of luxury, knowing that our Christian brothers and sisters are being murdered and enslaved in much of the world. And in most of the rest of the world, the are ridiculed, mocked, and marginalized. Yet, most of us in relatively free and prosperous countries choose to either ignore this dilemma or passively hope things get better.El Cidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541350679599893588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-38568759052988352052015-10-14T23:38:02.124-05:002015-10-14T23:38:02.124-05:00Well thought out, well reasoned, and true. Not in ...Well thought out, well reasoned, and true. Not in the relative sense, but in the absolute sense. Very sobering. Thanx, Bob. SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09011204093002662138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-33702635092837817882015-10-09T13:15:28.886-05:002015-10-09T13:15:28.886-05:00You're welcome. I will do that,You're welcome. I will do that,Robert Elart Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18182251436190781481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-30979951078219052532015-10-09T10:44:51.657-05:002015-10-09T10:44:51.657-05:00Thanks for that clear word. My 100 page book, Marr...Thanks for that clear word. My 100 page book, Marriage Reconsidered, says basically the same thing. (John William Lee) - see it online.John William Leenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-15781435067386830212015-10-08T15:04:05.455-05:002015-10-08T15:04:05.455-05:00Thank you, Steve.
Dealing with the realization t...Thank you, Steve. <br /><br />Dealing with the realization that we're living in First Century Rome (or at least Fourth Century Italy) is tough for people brought up to believe in progress rather than social atrophy. But alas, atrophy is what we have, and we'd better figure out how to respond to it.Robert Elart Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18182251436190781481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-73451055320936236232015-10-08T12:21:44.007-05:002015-10-08T12:21:44.007-05:00Excellent post, Bob. Cleared up a lot of circular ...Excellent post, Bob. Cleared up a lot of circular thinking I go through on this matter. The phrase, "the forgiveness of sins can't be modeled, it has to be proclaimed" kind of jumped out at me. SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09011204093002662138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-77769063293699408602015-09-30T16:16:18.727-05:002015-09-30T16:16:18.727-05:00As well you should be.
I was a pastor in first Th...As well you should be.<br /><br />I was a pastor in first The ALC and then the ELCA for twelve long and emotionally draining years. Believe it or not, there were sound theologians in that church body. My seminary advisor, Dr. Ralph Quere, was a perfect example. James Nestigen, who is now in one of the synods that broke away from the ELCA after the Minneapolis fiasco, was also relatively sound. While I'm deeply disappointed in Dr. Quere's response to the gay business ("Lutherans have never regarded church discipline as church-dividing-" which, while true, is not the issue) and that of others of my more conservative seminary professors, they deserve credit for having done what they did when they did it. And don't forget men like Charles Porterfield Krauth, who rank up there with Walther and Pieper as champions of orthodoxy (although Krauth, of course, goes back a ways).<br /><br />Believe me, I hear you. Having gone through both extremes, I agree that neither is better than the other. And I should say that I have not read Forde extensively; what I said above is based upon what relatively little I have read of him.<br /><br />In any case, thanks for your comments. Grace and blessings to you as well! Robert Elart Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18182251436190781481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-8506875668981610802015-09-29T13:25:49.884-05:002015-09-29T13:25:49.884-05:00Thanks Roger,
Thanks for what you said. I tota...Thanks Roger,<br /><br /> Thanks for what you said. I totally agree that sanctification begins with thankfulness for Jesus' sacrifice covering my sins with His Righteousness, the core of the Gospel. Sanctification could never begin with my efforts. Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of my faith, justification, sanctification and glorification.<br /><br /> Coming from a Bible-believing Evangelical United Brethren background, having passed through the ELCA desert, and finally arriving in the LCMS, I am thankful for not taking the Reformed stance on sanctification based on guilt any longer. It only bred damning self-righteousness in my past and didn't exorcise any of my sins. Now as a confessional Lutheran, I realize more fully the seriousness of my sins and approach the throne of grace humbly, no longer worrying if my Christian life is being used as a litmus test of my own faith in Jesus, or that faith of those around me who profess faith in Him.<br /><br /> Still, I am always wary when dealing with theologians, Lutheran or otherwise, who would have a liberal Protestantism slant and would downplay the penal substitutionary Atonement of our Lord, of which St. Mark recorded as having said that He "gave His life, a ransom for many". I've been so traumatized by the universalism and other false doctrines of the ELCA that I would never read one of their theologians' writings. But I can accept Forde's point that self-righteousness bred by legalism is just as damning as total disregard for my actions fostered by antinomianism.<br /><br /> Grace, peace and thanks! Chuck Braunnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-6080153209092959232015-09-29T10:13:36.630-05:002015-09-29T10:13:36.630-05:00Chuck, while that isn't the way I raad Forde (...Chuck, while that isn't the way I raad Forde (he did prefer other models to the Anselmian substitutionary atonement model of the Atonement, but despite its influence the Church has never said that Anselm's is the<br />only way we can think of the Atonement biblically), I am not altogether comfortable with all aspects of Forde's approach, though I think the idea that he wanted Christians to sin merrily away without thinking about it is going to far.<br /><br />But that's not the point. The point is that orthodox Lutheran theology (regardless of Forde) has always insisted that our sanctification, good works and repentance are in fact motivated by the Gospel rather than the Law. The opposite view is Reformed theology.<br /><br />In Luther's view (and that of the Confessions) sanctification is worked, not by coercion, but by gratitude. It's the product of the Gospel, not the Law (though obviously the Second Use of the Law makes us aware of our need to repent, and the Third Use informs our response of obedient gratitude). Franz Pieper (I trust you know the name- he was probably the Missouri Synod's greatest theologian after Walther and certainly its greatest systematician) went so far as to say that if pastors try to motivate their congregaton to good works by beating them over the head with the Law, they have nobody but themselves to blame for the fact that sanctification doesn't happen!<br /><br />There are two sides of the fence that people fall off of. One is antinomianism- the position you ascribe to Forde (as I say, I'm not entirely comfortable with his position either). But he did recognize the opposite problem, which is at least as serious: that you can't work sanctification through the Law. Guilt isn't the tool the Holy Spirit uses in that work; love and gratitude are. And they are worked by the Gospel. The Law prepares the way for it, and afterward gives it form and substance through the Third Use. But the Third Use is the grateful response of someone who understands that he is forgiven and accepted by God by grace through faith, and precisely not because of his success in obeying the law.<br /><br />Both problems are endemic in Missouri. In the ELCA, antinomianism pretty much runs amok, unchallenged. But Missouri has always had the problem that some pastors are so (rightfully) afraid of antinomianism that they fall off the fence in the opposite direction and become legalists by trying to drive motivation to obey through the Law and guilt rather than through the Gospel and gratitude.<br /><br />The Law restrains gross sinfulness even on the part of unbelievers (as one theology prof at RF put it, even atheists are afraid of lighting!) Its most important use is that it breaks us, showing us precisely our inability to obey the Law and our need for a Savior. After we repent and believe, it graciously informs people who love God and are eager to please Him how they may do so. Calvin and to some extent Reformed theology generally see this Third Use as the main one. But Luther and orthodox Lutheranism have always insisted that the main and most important use of the Law is the second- and that when the Law rather than the Gospel is used in an attempt to motivate obedience, gratitude and thus sanctification itself are suppressed, and ultimately we are lost either to Phariseeism or to despair.<br />Robert Elart Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18182251436190781481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-8771958645149842542015-09-29T07:27:20.408-05:002015-09-29T07:27:20.408-05:00I was under the (hopefully mistaken) notion that F...I was under the (hopefully mistaken) notion that Forde wouldn't want Christians to even think about their sins in the least. But his idea that personal holiness should be motivated by the Holy Spirit's working through the Gospel being preached to us, rather than by overly beating the Law over our heads, is sound.<br /><br />There are several times where I noticed I was led away from certain sins over the years, without ever consciously trying to move away from them. So, in a sense, I believe that sanctification is God's work just as completely as justification is. Totally from without, totally the Holy Spirit's work.<br /><br /> Still, the day when I forget that the Old Adam still lives in me would be a dangerous day. And if that's what Forde truly promotes, a pox on his house. But if his main point was that Lutheran Christians aren't trying to climb a ladder of personal holiness by their own efforts, but rise and fall, perhaps only growing in their knowledge of the depth of their sin and the continual need for Jesus' forgiveness by the hearing of the Gospel, then thank God for what Forde has said.<br /><br /> It is hard for me to accept the writings of a Lutheran theologian who didn't believe in the Fall. But I would agree that the Gospel, not the Law, should be our motivator to produce fruit from our faith. Any "license to sin" greasy-gracer who has made willful sin a new Law is teaching doctrine as damaging as Legalism. Chuck Braunnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-32604371528662306442015-09-21T12:25:40.554-05:002015-09-21T12:25:40.554-05:00Then say that someone who doesn't believe in a...Then say that someone who doesn't believe in a division of government or religion or who believes in theocracy shouldn't be president, not that a Muslim shouldn't be president. "No religious test" means exactly what the words say. Hard to be a constitutionalist if you muff that one!Robert Elart Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18182251436190781481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-43883624223847115092015-09-20T22:15:54.655-05:002015-09-20T22:15:54.655-05:00Is it not a tenet of the Muslim religion that ther...Is it not a tenet of the Muslim religion that there is no division of government and religion? Would this not compel a devout Muslim to advocate for a theocracy? SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09011204093002662138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-17323385320296906202015-08-25T21:56:26.733-05:002015-08-25T21:56:26.733-05:00Trump suffer's from the same "King George...Trump suffer's from the same "King George syndrome" that O'bama does. The President does not have the power to do all these cockamamie things that he tells us that he will do. We had a revolution and instituted a Constitution that spells out the fact that we are governed by three equal branches of government. SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09011204093002662138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-32097404292547650142015-04-30T10:05:46.913-05:002015-04-30T10:05:46.913-05:00AmenAmenSteve Hermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-51811816707171366532015-03-07T12:42:10.385-06:002015-03-07T12:42:10.385-06:00As I was reading you post, I couldn't help but...As I was reading you post, I couldn't help but chuckle a little because of how true it is. I feel like the world is starting to take an almost anything goes approach to everything in life. Even though I am not Lutheran, I am a Christian who believes the same as you do when it comes to marriage. In my faith, we have a document called "The Family: A Proclamation to the World". It talks about "marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children." It then carries on to say later "HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.<br /><br />THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan." <br /><br />I'm so glad that other people out there have these same views! <br /><br />Here is a link to the full document, its beautifully written. <br /><br />https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamationAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02001970081014394979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-17437224980622348872015-01-15T12:11:23.049-06:002015-01-15T12:11:23.049-06:00As the Christians of the Middle Ages did from the ...As the Christians of the Middle Ages did from the Bible:<br /><br />"If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you." -- Leviticus 20:14 <br /><br />"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." -- Leviticus 21:9 <br /><br />"Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." -- Genesis 38:24 <br /><br />"He that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath. ... And Joshua ... took Achan ... and his sons, and his daughters ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire." -- Joshua 7:15, 24-25 <br /><br />Of course- as much as our militant atheist friends ignore this fact- the passages above are from the civil criminal code of an ancient nomadic theocracy. Kind of tough to have a prison system to speak of in those circumstances, burning was only used as a form of execution in exceptional situations, and literally nobody (other than atheists) have taken these passages to have any sort of authority or significance outside of their original context.<br /><br />But it just goes to show you that context is important- and it's not wise to join too quickly in the violation of the Eighth Commandment with respect to Islam generally. It has the most significant shortcoming of all- it's a false religion- and that's all the condemnation it needs.Robert Elart Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18182251436190781481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-63328139008780851342015-01-15T11:26:32.464-06:002015-01-15T11:26:32.464-06:00But they get their permission from the Koran.But they get their permission from the Koran.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09011204093002662138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-64624468703542734722014-12-18T17:16:28.275-06:002014-12-18T17:16:28.275-06:00One of the worst things that have resulted from th...One of the worst things that have resulted from this Liberalization of our universities is the rank anti-Semitism and Jew-Hatred that is now almost fashionable on our college campuses. The real obscene part of this is the parents who willingly and stupidly send their kids to what are now RE-education and Indoctrination centers. There is one "professor" who was reported to have told his students that his job was to make sure the kids UN-learned all the things their parents had taught them. i.e. morals and common decency. Start you education like I did with these books:<br /><br />Indoctrination U: The Left's War Against Academic Freedom and The Professors: The 101 Most Dangerous Academics in America by David Horowitz<br /><br />“Indoctrinate U.” Watch This Documentary!!! (You Tube Video)<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHyvRHrYYBA<br /><br />The Least Free Place in America (You Tube video-Prager Univ.)<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJaM8IOev7E<br /><br />Ivory Towers On Sand: The Failure of Middle Eastern Studies in America by Martin Kramer<br />The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men by Christina Hoff Sommers<br /><br />The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East by Caroline B. Glick. READ THIS BOOK!!!<br /><br />The Haj by Leon Uris (A Primer on the “right to return” scam)<br />Lessons from ‘The Haj’ A book review by Joseph Puder<br />http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/joseph-puder/lessons-from-the-haj/print/<br /><br />and<br /><br />Because They Hate: A Survivor of Islamic Terror Warns America by Brigitte Gabriel (These three books should be sold as a gift set.)<br /><br />Amb. Prosor addresses UNGA debate on the Question of Palestine (You Tube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1--Os_apR0<br /><br />BDS: The Attempt to Strangle Israel (You Tube)<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTuTL8aCx6k<br /><br />Islamophobia: Thought Crime of the Totalitarian Future by David Horowitz and Robert Spencer (Booklet)<br />Larry A. Singletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11421030956756785044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-70680504258934776172014-12-05T21:40:42.706-06:002014-12-05T21:40:42.706-06:00The worst of it is that they would not have come t...The worst of it is that they would not have come to form the government without the help of their coalition partners: Social Democrats and Greens. It says something about Social Dems and Greens. Berthold Brecht put it well in the song of the calves:<br />Nur die dümmsten Kälber<br />wählen ihre Metzger selber.<br /><br />Only the most stupid calves<br />choose their own butcher.Pomeranushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788099139283548601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-70729178013727999112014-09-14T16:22:36.332-05:002014-09-14T16:22:36.332-05:00I'm hope ,hope,prayin that we pass. The Aussie...I'm hope ,hope,prayin that we pass. The Aussies are awesome.SteveHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09011204093002662138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-63858769651519204172014-09-13T14:58:51.973-05:002014-09-13T14:58:51.973-05:00And an atheist, as I recall.And an atheist, as I recall.Robert Elart Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18182251436190781481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-21645800012968369732014-09-13T10:39:58.281-05:002014-09-13T10:39:58.281-05:00It is useful to note that Bonhoeffer's father ...It is useful to note that Bonhoeffer's father was one of Germany's leading psychologists. Bonhoeffer knew the limits of the kingdom of the left, including government, medicine, and psychology.Pomeranushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788099139283548601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-73676394397044020362014-07-24T16:13:31.406-05:002014-07-24T16:13:31.406-05:00AMENAMENPomeranushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788099139283548601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-51934316906419268412014-07-21T13:29:17.750-05:002014-07-21T13:29:17.750-05:00Don't know about misogyny, but one of my pasto...Don't know about misogyny, but one of my pastors growing up had to suspend Communion for the entire congregation in order to get the voters to overrule the Board of Education and admit an African-American girl to our parochial school. Racism remains a problem, although it's generally a little slicker than it was back in the day.<br /><br />As to religious intolerance, there is, of course, a vast difference between being staunchly orthodox and being Islamophobic.Robert Elart Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18182251436190781481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7089029.post-5565616606999057222014-07-19T20:23:56.025-05:002014-07-19T20:23:56.025-05:00Neither should racism, misogyny (or poor spelling)...Neither should racism, misogyny (or poor spelling) religious intolerance or many other failures of trust in God. Whosays we don't need Jesus?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com