"Three Self" Sunday's gotta be a Chinese propagandist!
Sunday service in Xinzheng just responded to this post.
Please read his response. I can imagine nothing more devastating to either his own credibility, or to the totalitarian government he's so in love with. He actually defends a Chinese law which forbids the religious instruction of children under sixteen, and terms it "brainwashing!"
I've changed my mind. I believe that my first impression was correct- that Sunday is in fact an agent of the Chinese government posing as an American Christian. No American, and no Christian, could possibly make the arguments he makes in support of the most murderous regime in human history. No American would think for a moment that the arguments he makes could possibly be persuasive to another American. No Christian could possibly defend a regime that does the things he admits the Chinese do. And nobody of any religious belief or nationality could possibly be that naive!
No, I cannot imagine an American Christian defending the arresting of pastors who don't allow the government to dictate to them- or for that matter, allowing himself to become an apologist for a regime that has murdered seventy seven million of its own people, whether it's currently doing so at Sujiatun or not.
Sunday's gotta be a ChiCom- and one who isn't very good about posing as anything else.
ADDENDUM: Sunday- who also uses the names Bobby Fletcher and Charlie Liu in his frenzied defense of the PRC all over the Internet- has admitted that he's been deceiving us by implying that he's a Christian. But he still insists that he's an American.
Whatever. He doesn't read my posts or anybody's responses, he doesn't discuss the issues in good faith, and if he's an American, he's been brainwashed beyond any possibility of reasoning with him. Beyond that, I will not allow this blog to be used as a billboard for propaganda defending monsters.
I've given up trying to reason with him. Sunday is no longer welcome to comment on this blog.
Comments
I am so not a Christian.
To be honest I never thought I would ever go to church, let along go to church in China.
I only went to Church because the villagers were so kind to me, and they kept inviting me, and gave me bibles and Chinese spring posters with Christian saying (something they proudly display on their doors, freely without fear of arrest.)
Remember what the bible said about being a light in darkness. I was closer to your god in China than I have ever been back home in America.
Think about that.
Have you forgotten about all the Native Americans we genocidally eliminated?
Sunday Service, you just outted yourself, with and in your own words.
- Epoch Times' sources are unverifiable.
- The Australian article states initial congressional finding says the allegation is not credible:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18669046-7583,00.html
It appears the claims by Falun Gong have been at least substantially exaggerated. Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed by Falun Gong.
I don't have to think about the notion that you somehow were closer to a Deity in which you do not believe when in contact with stooges of a totalitarian regime which has murdered more people than any other in recorded history- and has done so as a matter of state policy, in the space of less than a century- and who operate with the intention of deceiving gullible folks like yourself. It's its own absurd refutation.
Your lack of thoughtfulness is clearly revealed in your quickess to accuse the United States of being worse than China because of the genocide of the Indians over a century ago. There were nowhere near seventy three million American Indians, Sunday. Nor would factoring in all the deaths your extreme, anti-American politics- whatever their origin- blame on the United States cause the figure to approach that of what I repeat, once again, is the most murderous regime in recorded human history- and one for which you are an apologist.
Your repeating of your spin does not change the fact that 1)neither the congressional committee nor American diplomats either have access to the "hospital: " 2) the reports in question are fragmentary; 3) the nature of the police state in China makes verification of the charges impossible for obvious reasons; 4) the murder of seventy three million of its own people would make a Sujiatun death camp very much in line with the regime's past behavior, and would support the allegations, and indeed give them automatic credibility far greater than that of the regime's denials; 5) that even if the Sujiatun camp is indeed a perfectly innocent hospital, you are still defending the most bloody and tyrannical regime in recorded human history on the ground that its agents have been kind to you personally in an attempt to take advantage of your gullibility: 6) that they have succeeded; 7) that your arguments are pretty lame, and don't come close to overthrowing the suspicion the regime's past behavior
quite rightly throws upon the regime in connection with the Sujiatun charges; and 8)that you are clearly so steeped in hatred for America and a determination to defend the butchers of Beijing no matter where the evidence leadsthat you didn't even bother to read my initial reply to your statement replies to your position.
Enough. I don't have time to argue with irrational people who aren't discussing the issues in good faith, and I have no intention of allowing this blog to become a billboard for the monsters who run China.
Further posts from you, Sunday, will be deleted.
Even if the harvesting of organs from executed political prisoners and religious martyrs isn't as widespead as is claimed, the fact that it's happening at all is a gross indictment of the regime- and the fact that you can defend it disqualifies you as anyone whose moral opinions we have any reason to heed.
Your accusation that the United States is the greatest mass murderer in history is not only bizarre, but dishonest- for reasons which have been pointed out to you over and over again.
There were never anywhere near seventy-three million American Indians to be killed. While that horrible blot on our history is not excused by this fact, our govenment has never had a conscious and considered policy of mass murder, as China has had ever since Mao took over (and if the truth be told, even before; Chang's Nationalist regime comes in third, behind Mao's and Hitler's, in state-supported murders, with over ten million).
It's you, Sunday, who has ignored the facts- and not even bothered to read them when presented to you.
Enough.
Sunday did a driveby C&P on my blog as well when I spoke of the camp. I checked him out and, from what I can gather, he actually is living in America. Whether he's a citizen of Taiwanese descent, as he claims, or Chinese, or just here on a green card, is something I'm not sure of yet.
However, one thing he said on someone else's blog is of interest. He said that there was no massacre in Tiananmen Square: the students who were protesting were actually invited to leave, and it was only the ones who fought the soldiers who were killed. So the numbers of the deaths are actually quite low.
That story is what has been sold to the Chinese people, themselves. If you ask them about the massacre, they say "what massacre?" Then they get over to the West and read about it, and are flat-out amazed.
That's led me to think he's not a natural-born citizen, at least. Either that or he's drinking long-range kool-aid.
J
One thing is clear: he is either an agent of the Chinese government, or brainwashed beyond belief.
This is for Sunday because he will be back--he just can't help himself.
The report showing evidence that the Falun Gong have been butchered for their organs is out-they take the corneas, the two kidneys, then the liver, etc... A full copy of the report can be viewed at: http://investigation.redirectme.net/
For more media coverage go to:
http://ahdu88.blogspot.com/2006/07/kilgour-matas-report-on-falun-gong.html
http://ahdu88.blogspot.com/2006/07/2008-beijing-olympics-why-bother.html
David Kilgour and David Matas respond to the Chinese government
statement
http://ahdu88.blogspot.com/2006/07/2008-beijing-olympics-why-bother.html
http://ahdu88.blogspot.com/2006/07/canadian-report-confirms-chinas.html
A full copy of the report can be obtained at:
http://investigation.redirectme.net/
The Government of China released a statement in response to our report titled *Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China* dated July 6, 2006. The statement can be found at http://www.chinaembassycanada.org . We have these reactions to this statement:
1. The statement of the Government of China was released the same day as our Report. The statement of the Government of China dismisses our Report out of hand. We view this reaction is unconsidered. It means that the Government of China has engaged in no investigations to determine whether or not what the report contains is true.
2. The statement of the Government of China begins with the phrase
"In order to extricate itself from an awkward position after its lie about "Sujiatun Concentration Camp" has been laid bare, Falun Gong has shifted..."
This phrase is incorrect in a number of different ways. First, it suggests that our Report is a Falun Gong report. Yet, it is not. We are not Falun Gong practitioners. We did this report as volunteers and were not paid for this report by Falun Gong or anyone. Our report represents our own judgment. We have not acted on the instructions of Falun Gong or anyone else in coming to the conclusions we did.
3. The assertions about Sujiatun Concentration Camp to which the Chinese statement refers originated from the ex-wife of a surgeon at Sujiatun Hospital. This person is not a Falun Gong practitioner. This person has not changed or shifted her story at any time. David Kilgour interviewed her. An excerpt of the interview can be found at Appendix 13 of our report.
4. It is our own opinion, expressed in our report, that this woman was not lying. We concluded that she was credible.
5. In our report we did not rely on this witness alone to come to our conclusions. In our report, this is what we said about the testimony of this witness:
"The testimony of the wife of the surgeon allegedly complicit in Falun Gong organ harvesting seemed credible to us, partly because of its extreme detail. However, that detail also posed a problem for us, because it provided a good deal of information which it was impossible to
corroborate independently. We were reluctant to base our findings on sole source information. So, in the end, we relied on the testimony of this witness only where it was corroborative and consistent with other evidence, rather than as sole source information."
Our report is not a shift from what this witness says, but rather an expansion, with a larger focus than just Sujiatun Hospital.
6. The Chinese statement then says:
"It is obvious that their purpose is to smear China's image." We reply that we have no wish to smear China's image. Our sole concerns are respect for the truth and human rights.
7. The Chinese statement then says: "China has consistently abided by the relevant guiding principles of the World Health Organization endorsed in 1991, prohibiting the sale of human organs and stipulating that donors' written consent must be obtained beforehand and donors are entitled to refuse the donation at last minute."
This statement that China made is denied by the facts. The China International Transplantation Network Assistance Centre Website until April of this year set out a price list for transplants. The price list was removed from the website in April, but is still archived. To see the web site now, go to http://en.zoukiishoku.com . To see the archived site, go to
http://archive.edoors.com/render.php?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fen.zoukiishoku.com%2Flist%2Fcost.htm+&x=16&y=11
As well, many individuals can attest to paying for organ transplants in China.
8. The statement that China has consistently abided by the principle stipulating that donors' written consent must be obtained beforehand is also belied by the facts. Human Rights Watch has reported that consent is obtained from executed prisoners in only a minority of cases. The
organization writes that even in this minority of cases "the abusive circumstances of detention and incarceration in China, from the time a person is first accused of a capital offense until
the moment of his or her execution, are such as to render absurd any notion of "free and voluntary consent."
*Organ Procurement and Judicial Execution in China*, August 1994
9. The China statement goes on to say:
"China has issued a regulation on human organ transplants, explicitly banning the sale of organs and introducing a set of medical standards for organ transplants in an effort to guarantee medical safety and the health of patients. The regulation requires medical institution which is qualified for practising human organ transplant to register at provincial level health department. Unregistered medical institutions are forbidden to practice human organ transplant. If the government finds any registered institution violating the regulation, it will cancel the registration and punish the people responsible."
We acknowledge that this is so, and wrote about it in our Report. We also noted that this legislation came into force only a few days ago on July 1st. It is not an answer to our findings about what happened before that date. Moreover, in China, there is a huge gap between enacting legislation and enforcing it.
10. The Government of China then writes:
"It is very clear that Falun Gong's rumour has ulterior political motives."
None of our findings are based on rumour. Every finding we make is sourced and independently verifiable.
11. The China statement then says:
"Therefore, the so called "independent investigation report" made by a few Canadians based on rumours and false allegations is groundless and biased. We do believe that lies are always lame, and will never become the truth even if being repeated 1000 times. We hope that the Canadian people will not be deceived by the disguise of the Falun Gong, and more people will be aware of the nature of "Falun Gong" as an evil cult."
This conclusion is an attack both on us and Falun Gong. The Report has to be judged on its merits. Attacking its authors is not an appropriate response.
Secondly calling the Falun Gong an evil cult exemplifies the vilification heaped on the Falun Gong. It is this sort of slander which, in China, depersonalizes and dehumanizes the Falun Gong and makes possible the violation of their basic human rights.
Calling a group of innocent civilians an "evil cult" is a form of incitement to hatred, unacceptable in Canada. It is an abuse of their diplomatic presence in China for China to engage in this form of incitement.
For more information, please contact:
David Kilgour: (613) 747-7854 David Matas: (204) 944-1831
http://ahdu88.blogspot.com/2007/04/chinas-sympathizers-launch-high